Senna/Schumacher - Vozes desinteressadas, antigo mas actual...

Senna v Schumacher BBC Sport Online's motorsport editor, Andrew Benson, assesses Michael Schumacher's ability compared with that of the man considered by many to be the best Grand Prix driver in history - Ayrton Senna. Ultimate speed There is no doubt that Schumacher is the fastest driver of the current age in F1, but Senna has a better claim to be the quicker of the two. His record of 65 pole positions in 162 races is evidence enough - Schumacher has "only" 39 from 153. For all Schumacher's ability, he is not as good at putting together the best possible lap on a Saturday afternoon as was Senna. When the two men raced together, from 1992-94, Senna undoubtedly had the upper hand, even if Schumacher was emerging as his biggest rival. Senna scored 65 poles - and this one at Monaco in 1988 was extra-special And on top of that, the opposition against which the Brazilian achieved his success was of a higher level. Senna had Alain Prost, Nelson Piquet and Nigel Mansell to compete against, all of whom have a claim to be all-time greats. The depth of competition at the top is not as strong any more. Senna 10- 9 Schumacher Race-craft Senna and Schumacher - both masters of crushing their opponents into submission in a race with a relentless series of laps close to the limit. And both adept in any conditions. However, Schumacher gets the nod because of the flexibility his brilliance has allowed his Ferrari team in race tactics. These have netted them many unlikely victories, most memorably at Hungary in 1998, when he had to make up 25 seconds in 19 laps in the middle of the race. Schumacher and technician Brawn have established a formidable tactical partnership This may be unfair on Senna, as the tactical side of F1 racing has changed enormously with the introduction of fuel stops in 1994, just three races before Senna's death. That means there is less of a context in which to judge the Brazilian. Nevertheless, while Senna was the racing master of his era, Schumacher's improvisational skills put him narrowly ahead. Senna 9-10 Schumacher Genius Both Senna and Schumacher can claim to have produced a number of races that will go down among the list of the greatest individual drives of all time. But it is qualifying that again separates the two. Senna was regularly brilliant, but sometimes he surpassed even himself. Most famously, there was Monaco in 1988, when he put his car on pole position, 1.5 seconds quicker than Prost in the same car. He later said he felt as if he was driving on instinct, watching himself from above. Senna 10-9 Schumacher Technical Senna again has the slight advantage. Schumacher works hard and is better technically than most, but Senna and Prost have a reputation as the best there have ever been on this front. Senna drove Prost off the track to win the 1990 world title They both had an other-worldly ability to pick up the tiniest of details about the car's performance. For example, at one race in 1993, Senna told his engineers that he felt there was some kind of problem with the engine and he asked them to change it. The engine men could find nothing wrong, but team boss Ron Dennis asked them to put a new engine in anyway, just for Senna's peace of mind. When they took it apart, they found a tiny crack in the crankshaft that had not even been picked up by computer telemetry. Had Senna used it, the engine would have failed. Senna 9-8 Schumacher Consistency A strong point of both. Their advantage came not only for being able to drive faster than anyone else, but to do so for longer. Senna raised fitness and preparation to new levels when he was making his name, but Schumacher took the bar even higher. Both men made more mistakes than Prost - who set the standards for an error-free career - but the difference is that Schumacher makes them when it really matters and Senna did not. The German has made crucial errors in three title showdowns. He got away with it in 1994 by driving Damon Hill off the track at the next corner. He was not so lucky in 1997 and 98. Senna would never have lost a championship in such circumstances. Senna 9-8 Schumacher Will to win There is no doubting the unbelievable levels of commitment and desire shown by both - each causing controversy by being prepared to put their opponents in positions where they risked an accident if they did not back off. But Senna was willing to take even more risks than Schumacher, to the point that he put his own life in danger as well. This was demonstrated when Senna barged Prost off the track at 150mph on the first lap of the 1990 Japanese GP. Senna was driven by a raging internal anger, which made a frightening combination when combined with his desire. Schumacher only has the desire. Senna 10-9 Schumacher Wet-weather ability They are probably the best wet-weather drivers of all time, for their consistent level of excellence in such conditions, and their total superiority over their peers. Impossible to separate them. Senna 10-10 Schumacher Work ethic Senna and Schumacher both showed a total commitment to success, unmatched by anyone else bar Prost. All three worked long into the night to ensure they were as prepared as they could be. Senna 10-10 Schumacher Summary It is well-nigh impossible to compare drivers of different eras, but Senna and Schumacher make the job slightly easier because they raced against each other - albeit for a very brief time. Senna combined all the qualities a racing driver could need - amazing skill, total commitment and a brilliant intellect. And that was quite apart from a gleaming charisma that has established him as one of the all-time great sporting icons. Schumacher is sensationally gifted, too, and it is clear that Senna's death robbed Formula One of what would have been one of the greatest on-track rivalries of all time. At 34, Senna was at his peak, but probably did not have much longer there; Schumacher still had to reach his. Schumacher has done more than enough to establish himself as one of the greatest racing drivers of all time. But the assessment, subjective though it might be, suggests that Senna was even better. Total: Senna 77-73 Schumacher

Icon v Icon: Michael Schumacher vs Ayrton Senna Michael Schumacher, Italian GP 2001© The Cahier ArchiveA fourth World Championship has taken Michael Schumacher past the three crowns of the late Ayrton Senna, the rival to whom he is most frequently compared and whose mantle Fate forced upon him. Without doubt the German deserves to be elevated into the heady company of men such as Senna, or four-time champion Alain Prost whose tally of titles and record of 51 GP victories Schumacher equalled in Hungary. But the question persists, when looking at their respective careers: has Michael Schumacher had it too easy? Though neither of them goes out of their way to publicize the fact, former World Champions Alain Prost and Jackie Stewart believe that since the mid- to late Nineties there has been a dearth of genuine stars in F1. After all, in Prost's day he had to vanquish rivals such as Gilles Villeneuve and Alan Jones; Didier Pironi and Rene Arnoux; Nelson Piquet and Nigel Mansell; Keke Rosberg; and, of course, Ayrton Senna. Stewart likewise had to contend with Jimmy Clark; Graham Hill; Dan Gurney; John Surtees; Jack Brabham; Chris Amon; and Jochen Rindt. Any of them were as fast as Prost or Stewart on their day; it was other attributes that the Frenchman and the Scot called upon to beat them in the long haul. The line of thinking prompts a question some may believe to be heresy. Has Michael Schumacher ever really had any genuine rivals? "Where," Stewart once asked quietly, "has Michael's real opposition been?" One leading sportscar journalist in 1991 bet his F1 colleagues that Schumacher would qualify in the top 10 for his first race at Spa, when he was signed by Eddie Jordan to replace the jailed Bertrand Gachot. Had there been any takers, Quentin Spurring would have won his bet. From that day onwards, observers began to realize that a new star had arrived. Back then Michael had to contend with Senna, Prost and Mansell as he learned his trade, but almost immediately he dealt with Benetton team-mate Nelson Piquet. True, Nelson was near the end of an illustrious career, but it was a telling indication of Schumacher's potential that he was right on the Brazilian's pace straight away and only missed outqualifying him in all of their races together when he missed a shift in Adelaide. Ayrton Senna, Belgian GP 1991 © The Cahier Archive Perhaps the most telling indication of all came at Suzuka that season, when Schumacher crashed very heavily in practice after trying - and failing - to take the notorious 130R corner flat out. Later, in the medical center, Professor Sid Watkins examined him. "I told him that he had an excellent physique, and that he would make a very pretty corpse if he didn't slow down a little," Watkins later admitted. Asked some months later about the Prof's comment, Schumacher simply shrugged his shoulders as if he didn't know what the older man was talking about. But at the time his reaction had been even more decisive. He had gone back out, in Piquet's spare car, and gone faster than the Brazilian. By the time that Schumacher and Ayrton Senna were in cars of equal capability, in 1993, the Brazilian still had the upper hand, but by the start of 1994 the boot was on the other foot. The Williams FW16 was initially a difficult machine, spoiled by aerodynamic shortcomings. But though he was beaten by the German in the first race, and then taken out of the second, Senna mistrusted Schumacher. He remained privately convinced that he was running some kind of traction control on the Benetton. The truth of that may never be known, but what is certain is that Senna's death at Imola denied everyone the chance of seeing what Michael Schumacher was really like as an upcoming racing driver pitched against the very best. We will never know if he would have been able to do to Senna what Senna had done to Prost, what Prost had done to Niki Lauda. Without question Schumacher is now the best driver of his era, but we will never know how he would have compared against another established great. There will always be that question: was he really racing against drivers who were just below his own gifted level? And would he have been fallible had he been under sustained pressure from somebody possessed of Senna's great gifts? There is no question that Schumacher respected Senna, and Senna had a measure of respect for Schumacher. But the two never truly got on. Senna was the first driver to praise the German's performance at Spa in 1991, and he made a mental note there and then that this young newcomer would eventually be trouble. But Schumacher himself lost no time in being openly critical of the maestro. It happened at Interlagos in 1992 when Senna beat him into third place while racing in front of his adoring fans. Afterwards, pressmen listened open-mouthed as Schumacher launched into a stinging public criticism of the tactics that Senna had used to keep him behind. Senna was not amused. A few months later, at Magny-Cours, Schumacher pushed Senna off the track on the opening lap of the French GP. The race was red flagged, giving both men another chance. But on the grid before the restart, Senna gave Schumacher a serious talking to about his tactics. "Good," Senna laughed later to his friend Jo Ramirez at McLaren. "I've got him so rattled that he's going to do everything for me by taking himself off." Sure enough, when the race was restarted Schumacher fell off on the first lap, again at the Adelaide hairpin. There was another incident later that year, during a test session at Hockenheim. This time Senna felt that Schumacher had deliberately pushed him off the track at very high speed, and lost no time going down to the Benetton pit afterwards. There, he grabbed the German by the throat and screamed at him until they were separated. Though they were both very quick, the two had completely different characters. Some saw Senna as the emotional Latin; Schumacher as the cold Germanic computer who never showed any emotion. Senna's girlfriend Adrianne Galisteu wrote in her book how Ayrton would sit and watch Tina Turner at Adelaide in 1993, bouncing around in his seat in time to the music before joining the rock star on stage as she sang her song 'Simply The Best' in his honor. At the same time, she wrote, Michael simply sat rigidly the whole way through, merely clapping politely. For all that, each recognized and acknowledged the other's talent. Senna knew that Schumacher was his biggest rival once Prost had retired; Schumacher knew that if he beat Senna, he would be recognized as the best. Some, such as Lauda, believed the batten had already been passed by Imola, but Ramirez is scornful of that view. "For sure, Ayrton was driving a very bad car at the beginning of 1994. But he would have beaten Michael, I'm sure. Michael was, and still is, fallible under pressure, whereas Ayrton was not. He had no worries that he would beat Michael." And at the end of the season, after scoring his controversial first World Championship, Schumacher himself admitted: "If Ayrton had still been with us, I would not be the one wearing this crown." And Prost and Stewart might not be asking their question.

olá takoda nosh, parabéns pela elaboração deste longo post, e apesar de não estar actualizado em termos de estatisticas, está muito bem. é claro que concordo com o martin brundle:"Ele(Senna) tinha mais talento e era muito mais natural, uma pessoa muito mais emotiva que Schumacher". só um reparo, niki lauda tb afirmou um dia: "quando um piloto(senna)que é o melhor de todos os tempos, morre assim, vale a pena perguntar se este desporto tem sentido..." grande abraço

LOL... "Brundle acredita".... LOOL... eu acredito no que vejo, não acredito no que poderia ter visto SE qualquer coisa.... bla bla... enfim...

Há algum tempo que não vinha ao fórum, mas é como se o lapso de tempo entretanto decorrido fôsse comparável a um qualquer mero quarto de hora, se tanto!... O tópico está bem construído, mas assenta (onde é que já vi este filme...) em bases completamente surrealistas: "Se" o Senna não tivese morrido, vencería - pelo menos - até 1997" e c/ isso sería, muito convenientemente, diga-se de passagem, hepta-Campeão antes do Schumacher! (Esta só vale se fôr para rir!) Não o foi, não o é nem nunca o virá a ser, como é óbvio!... nem nunca será sequer um Tetra-Campeão, como o foi o Professor Alain Prost! Ora, a grande questão é a de que só houve, até à data, um piloto a conseguir 91 vitórias e Sete Campeonatos do Mundo, c/ recordes de VMR , kms no comando, segundos lugares, pódiums e Poles à mistura, (tudo bem melhor que o Senna), mas há por aí alguma gente que ainda não "descobriu" qual o verdadeiro significado desse feito.... o que, (diga-se também), por uma questão de teimosia cega, nunca mais na vida hão-de descortinar! ...há algumas vozes que são tudo menos "desinteressadas", como sujere o título do tópico.

È muito interessante ler aqui algumas respostas.........se.......se......se. A morte de Senna fechou uma Era rica em grandes pilotos. Sobrou um jovem cheio de talento e com fraca concorrência que se deu ao luxo de trocar de equipa para se tornar um Mito. Não tenham duvidas que qualquer piloto sonha em ser Campeão pela Ferrari, principalmente quando essa equipa não o conseguia à mais de duas décadas. Ele bateu todo que era recorde importante, e só foi batido por um jovem que terá muito talento ou tinha uma grande máquina........ este ano é que vamos tirar a prova dos nove. Lembro só uma coisa, eu sou um admirador da F1 como desporto fascinante que é............. só depois é que torço pelo o meu piloto preferido. Fui fã do Piquet desde que me lembro de ver F1, mesmo quando ele andava a arrastar-se naquele Taxi amarelo que era o Lotus Judd, optei pelo Shumacher porque foi o ultimo colega de equipa do Brasileiro. E agora vou torcer pelo irreverente Kimi mas só até o Piquet Junior entrar. Saudações cordiais a todos sem excepção.

talves sena prost isso sim mas só porque piquet estva já de fora